时间：2006年4月18日
地点：沈阳黄河立交桥乐购辛拉园
对话人：付晓东
付晓东(以下简称“付”)：你的早期头像画的作品图像化的成份比较多一点，后来你就把绘画当成一个装置作品，再后来是把那种观念性和图像感融合在一起。比如说雪地，心是一种符号，字也是一种符号，这两个符号结合到一起，在一个非常有图像感的场景里。等于把符号和场景和个人感受的经验融合到一起，包括你雪地里埋其他的东西，有青春不在的回忆。
郑强(以下简称“郑”)：如果把这种青春，或者这种情感扯进去的话，稍微有点煽情。事实上我当时画这个时没太想这种东西，画完了以后传达出那样的一个效果。画的时候可能有选择的去画，一个能刺痛我，或者是有感触的东西。
付：你现在才是个人化的感受和观念性的东西在往一起融。
郑：我想应该是这样，因为有时候你不管是抽象的，或者观念性绘画，我认为很多东西叠加在一起，生成一个新的东西，我一直感觉是这样。只不过以前做的时候太弱了，技术上还可以。
付：那你认为你那些头像的观念性是怎么体现的呢?
郑：当时这点想的比较少，就是画着画着才有的。就是一个人或者一个东西在一个特定的场景里边，它出现的一个表情或者其他的一个动作，传达出一个怪异的场景。这些作品我觉得渲染得太多了，逻辑上或者结构上还是比较松散的，因为那时候想不到那么多。
付：我觉得那些东西指向性不太明确，所以说阐述的空间特别小。
郑：可能每个人在每一个时间段想的问题不一样，然后解决问题着眼点不一样。那阵刚从学院出来，拼命的想把技术学到。现在想一想，那个技术无所谓，但是当时特别当回事。就是想出一种新办法替换一下，然后让视觉上有一个新的变化。当时着手解决的是这方面的事情，就变过来了。画着画着，一个是不明确，再一个是它技术妨碍你传达，你要继续往前走，它就成了一个绊脚石。
付：趴在地上的警察是你的一个转折点，你给他加了社会属性在里边?
郑：它是一个转折点就是因为人物的身份变了。我当时想有一点像舞台剧的效果，你看这个东西的时候其实你也是一个被看者。就是一个互动的东西，我想怎么样把这样一个互动的在这样一个静态图像上或者绘画上展开。所以我把那个人换成一个警察，让他在一个比较局促的空间里。这种身份对观众已有一种限定，让你觉得好像有一种收缩感，我觉得人物身份在这里面起到了一定的作用。就是当你审美的时候，其实你是一个被审视的对象。
付：我发现你对概念艺术特别关注，画上有这种字符出现，某种角度上你更概念一点吧。
郑：有点吧，但我不这么想。我觉得绘画应该回到绘画本身。我觉得概念或者观念的东西有一个问题。问题在于概念，或者观念一旦进入你的系统里，它很容易导致一个概念先行，我觉得对绘画是一个根本的妨碍。
付：我觉得概念艺术搞到一定程度了，很可能就会最后变得很空虚。
郑：我觉得绘画这个东西，它还是需要绘画本身来传达。但是现在跟以前那些东西绝对不是一样的。但是为什么?这个不好说，每个人都在往下走。但不应该是一个观念艺术的副产品，或者一个什么东西的图纸。拿绘画做概念艺术就不能把绘画的优势表现出来。概念可以有，但应该有个度。
付：你的视力表，包括扑克牌，可能出现了一个真相和假相的关系。你可能画里越写实，越像那个实体，实际上这个东西越抽象，就更像物体本身而不像是绘画。但同时它又是绘画，而把物品的功能性去掉了，就是一种转化。像画汉森的雕塑，那个有点互动的关系。把观众变成一个雕塑，成为流动的艺术表演者一样，他也参与到了你的作品里。
郑：当时基本上就是这么想的。视力表和绘画有个共同点就是都是个被看的东西。只是看的内容在变，是一种功能性的转变。视力表被放大得实际功能已经被取消了，这样它的意义才出来了。也是顺着警察那个思路往下做的。汉森的雕塑是更写实，更没有美感的一个活生生的东西，所以我选择了它。然后把椅子并在一起，有一把是从墙上拽下来的，刚好和汉森的雕塑共用一把椅子，然后出来到观众的真人，是一个循环，有点像图解。我就是想让它达到一个动态效果。
付：东北的艺术家有一个很大的特点，就是会动脑筋去想如何组合拼贴，去想其中的逻辑关系，变成一种很智性的关系，和那些简单的拼贴不是一回事，而是有种必然联系。
郑：对，它有个逻辑在里面，或者说一个框架。有时候它是需要一种必然，有时候是需要把人们对它的认定消解掉，从而形成一个新的东西。我已经看出那张画的漏洞了。这个漏洞在于把话说得太白，没有给观众留下一个很好的想象余地。绘画的创作和解读是属于两个系统。创作应该回避解读。绘画中最珍贵的东西可能就是非理性的东西，和解读是对抗的。
付：你再解释下你足球那批作品，我理解为它是你比较喜欢的游戏，你和外界发生关系的一种方法，是人和陌生的巨大的城市产生的碰撞，是和周围环境产生联系的一个连接词。
郑：跟肖像有点像，不一样的地方就是符号变了。人被抽掉了，拿了个其他的东西放在里面。足球本来的意义比较欢乐，是比较刺激的一项运动。但在不同的环境出现后，它的附加概念如果一直追加下去都是在变化的。比如说在商场里，它就是一个商品;在静物台上放着，它就是个静物等等。把人换成这个东西，它的身份变化了。但它又不是随便拿来的一个东西。一步一步证实后，追加出来的结果就是实际上是一个演员，变成了一个道具，和演员在一起从而证明了足球的身份。
付：我有一种新现实主义的提法，不是老的那种实打实的现实主义，是借助写实的手法，利用现实生活里的物品和场景，但表达的是心里的真实，是感情化的东西，是一个重建的精神世界，或者说是一个虚拟的现场，一个线索。貌似现实主义，而实际上并不是那种真正意义上的现实主义。是调侃一种错位的关系，荒谬的表达，或者说是一种假象的东西，一个再现的东西。可能你在所有人里是符号化最强的一个，或者说是记号，像字符啊，在画面上写字。某种角度上你受玛格里特的影响比较大。他也有文字的逻辑关系在里面，也有好几层关系，图像物体概念等。
郑：是有一定联系。但这种联系如果用绘画用图像去阐释的话，可能就不是那个概念了。任何一个东西它都会有一个现在的含义。当场景切换，或者说环境改变以后，它的意义、附加值在增大，外延被一个图像激发出来。我是想建立这种联系，这个东西出来的时候就不再是你一眼看上去的东西了。我现在画了两张足球，一个就是底子肌理做的非常厚，用调和油把颜色调的非常稀，然后勾一个足球的形象。我觉得这即是在绘画里的关系，更物质化了，跟现实里的东西是两回事。这个和绘画的关系就是一个笔触、一个肌理承载出一个形象，包括把这两种东西分离开。其实随便画什么都是这样，但用在绘画里应该是有理由，是形象和绘画的一种联系。另外一个也是足球，画成四个圆。第一个圆是石膏球球体，第二个圆套在后面，是平面的，上面只有肌理，第三个是足球的轮廓，整个是一个颜色，第四个是黑白相间的圆。没有立体感，像平面图案一样的东西。如果套在一起它就是个足球，我现在是把它打开了，我要拿绘画去把它表现出来。
付：这个有一点像名家公孙龙的“坚白石”的理论。你怎么会接触当代艺术的，在西安美院就开始了吗?
郑：在美院时接触过一点。那时喜欢看梵·高，现代主义那些画家基本上我都喜欢。都是天才画家。绘画手感很好，放到现在这个特定的时代显得不那么重要了。画家手好，画的东西好看，人们愿意看这个东西，尽管他想要传达的东西会被表层的东西取代。
Handle and Concept - Zheng Qiang
18th April, 2006
Place: Xinla Garden, Lloymall, Yellow River Cloverleaf Junction, Shenyang
Dialogist:Fu Xiaodong
Fu Xiaodong(hereafter refers to ‘Fu'): Your early works of portraits are more imagelike, then you regarded painting as a installation work, later on it blends concept and image. For example, heart is a symbol, so is the character, to blend the two symbols together and place it in an image scene, such as snowy ground. That is to say blend the symbol, scene and personal feel and experience together, including what you covered underneath the snowy ground, a feeling of emotion, a memory of there is no more youth.
Zheng Qiang(hereafter refers to ‘Zheng'): It would be a little incite emotions If youth or sentimental feelings was getting involved. As a matter of fact, I didn't think much about anything, it was an incident of expressing in such way. It is possible drawing selectively, something biting me inside or, a touch of my feeling.
Fu: Now you are apt to blend the personal feeling and the concept together.
Zheng: I think so. Because sometimes it is either abstract or idealistic painting, I think to it must be piled up a lot of items so as to create a new one. My previous works are too weak to shock apart from the technique.
Fu: How to incarnate the concept of the portraits you drew?
Zheng: In that time, I didn't think much about it. It arose accidentally during the process of painting, that is to say there is a person or an item in a given scene, its expression or other action, convey an unearthly scene. I think it is too romantic and incompact both in logic or structure, for I couldn't consider much more in that time.
Fu: I think those things' expression isn't obvious, so the space for expatiating is very small.
Zheng: Maybe everyone thinks differently in every different period of time, so the respect to solve problems is different. In that time, I just graduated and eager to learn the artistry technique. Now, looking back, the form of art isn't important, but I cared it too much at that time. Therefore, I tried to figure out a new way for replacement, and made a new change in vision. During painting, the unsureness and the artistry technique often block the expression and possibly, becoming an impediment.
Fu: The painting of a policeman who grovels on the ground was a turning point of yours. do you super induce the social attribute on him?
Zheng: I think it was a turning point because his status was changed, at the beginning, I wanted to make it a little similar with the living theatre: while you were seeing it, you were seen too by others, it was reciprocal event. I had considered how to spread this reciprocal out on static image or painting. So, I replace it with a policeman, put him in a narrow space. This status can also restrict the audiences, making you have a contractive feeling. I thought status played a certain role in it. That is when you are tasting you are actually seen by others.
Fu: I found you have paid particular attention to the concept art. There are character string appeared in your painting. In some point of view, do you tend to be a little more national to others?
Zheng: Maybe a little bit. I think the painting should go back to its original. In my opinion, there is a problem with the concept or idealistic art. The problem is that it is easy to cause concept in advance once the concept or notion gets into your system of painting. I think it is a basic hindrance to drawing.
Fu: I think when pursuing the concept art to a certain extent, it is possible becoming vacuous in the end.
Zheng: I think painting needs to be expressed on its own. And now it is absolutely different from the previous works. But what is it? It's hard to say, for everyone is going ahead, and it isn't a byproduct of concept art or a blueprint of something. The advantage of painting cannot be expressed fully when painting is to engage in concept art. The concept can exist, but it should be limited to an extent.
Fu: Your Sight Table , including Squeezer, there is a possible relation between the fact and the false. The more realistic your painting get, the more abstract the item will be. But it is a painting after all, just reducing the function of the item, a transformation. Like the sculpture of Hansen that has a little reciprocal relation between the audiences and him, of whom becoming the moving performer of art and also participating in one's work.
Zheng: I thought so at that time. There's a common ground between Sight Table and painting is both are being seen. Just the content of seeing is changing, a functional changing. The actual function of enlarged Sight Table has been canceled, therefore its meaning is come out. It follows the thought of that policeman. The Hansen's sculpture is more realistic, a living thing without aesthetic feeling, so I chose that one. Then put the chairs together, one of them was dragged from the wall, it happened to be the same chair with Hansen's sculpture, then come to the real person from the audience, that is a circle, a little like illustration. I do want it to have dynamic effect.
Fu: Artists from Northeast have a main character that they make this combination paste seriously, and consider the logic relation in it, it becomes a perceptual and rational relation. It is different to those simple pastes, though there's relation within.
Zheng: Yes, it's has logic or say a frame. Sometimes it needs a necessity, or it needs to clear up its cognizance by people, so it can form a new thing. I have seen the leak of that painting. The leak of it is said too completely, and didn't leave a space for audiences to image. The creation of art and explanation belong to two systems. The creation should avoid explanation. The most precious thing of painting is irrational feelings, and it is against the explanation.
Fu: Please explain the batch of works of football, I regard as a game you love, it is a way to be relative to the outside, the collision of man and big strange city, and a conjunction for contacting ambience.
Zheng: it is like portrait, the difference is the changing of symbol, and human is removed out, other things are put into it. Football has a original happy sense and is an exciting sport. But when appearing under different circumstances, its additional concept will be changed if it is supplemental. For instance, in shopping mall, it is commodity; on the still life table, it is a still object and so on. After switch it with human, its status changes. But it isn't the thing taken randomly. Proved step by step, the result is it is a performer, it became a property, the status of football is proved by being with performers.
Fu:I have a new neorealist suggestion, not that absolute realism, but a tact in virtue of way of painting realistically, make use of the article and scene in life, but it expresses the truth of the mentality, it is a thing with feeling and rebuilt spirit, or one clue in a fictitious scene. It is like realism in appearance, but not in real. It is talking a relation of missing place, absurd expression, or a feint, a reappearing thing, you maybe the person who use symbol the most, or marks, like character, writing words in the appearance of painting. To some extent, you are affect more by Magret. He also has logic relation of words in it, and several layer, like image and object, symbol and concept, etc.
Zheng: It has a relation. The concept would be changed if use image to explain this relation. Anything has its present meanings. When the scene or environment changed, its meaning and accessional worthiness are increased, extension is inspired by a image. I want to set up this relation, when it appears it isn't what you saw at first sight anymore. Now I painted two pieces paintings of football. One's bottom and texture are thick, and the colour is rarefied by tempered oil, then to sketch an image of football. I think this relation in painting is more materialized, is absolutely different from the reality. The relation between this and painting is a brushwork and a texture bear the weight of an image, including separating these two things. In fact, any painting is like this, it should have a reason, a relation between image and painting. The other one is also football, and paint four circles. First one is plaster sphere. The second is covered back of the first one, and it is planer, there is only texture on it. The third is the profile of football. All its colour is one kind. The fourth is a circle with black alternating with white, without third dimension, it is like a plane thing. If they are fitted together, that is a football. Now I spread it out because I want to represent it in painting.
Fu: It is a little like the famous expert Gong Sunlong's theory of White Tough Stone , how do you come into contact with the present art, did it begin in Xi'an Academy of Fine Arts?
Zheng: I knew a little bit about it when I was in university. That time I liked Van Gogh. And I like most of artists of modernism, for they were born to be artists. But it isn't so important if to place it in the present given times. A skillful artist whose painting is great so that people love to watch it, even though the thing he wants to represent will be replaced with its exterior.
【编辑：小红】
