文/赵子龙
访谈时间：2010年5月14日
访谈地点：北京黑桥王海川工作室
赵子龙(以下简称赵)：你的画面中出现的筒子楼、花园洋房以及园林，而且作品的色彩都比较单一，为什么?
王海川(以下简称王)：可能更多地是为了感觉中国传统精神与当下的关系。我认为艺术就像生活一样，从本质上出发，越简单越好。当很多东西去掉以后，剩下的就是精神性的东西，也就是本质。我的绘画一直在思考这样一个问题，我个人也在一直思考生命的本质。
我最早画的是地中海、西班牙、美式风格的高档小区，这可能是现代生活的一种表征，但你会发现这种形象里面有非常“不自然”的感觉。人很容易陷进这种现代化的潮流中，放弃原本的文化生存以及原本的文化思考，从而使得现代人处在一种“无根”的状态。现代的事物固然有很多合理的部分，它符合我们此时此地的生活;然而同时全面的抛离过去又使得人们的生活无所适从。
此外，我的绘画涉及的是一个集体记忆的问题，也就是我们能从我们的历史中找到什么。比如筒子楼，每个窗户都有故事。它不仅仅是一种再现，而是承载了我们那个年代的生活状态和生活气质。当时的邻里关系与今天完全不一样，那时哪家炒回锅肉，哪家发了奖金把阳台用瓷砖装了一下，大家都清楚——那种邻里关系中有人和人的关系中很美好的一面。
我觉得我们这一代人现在越来越难以善待我们的历史。出于某种情结，很多艺术家在涉及历史的时候，内心充满了哀怨和愤懑。我的感觉是，我们的过去虽然有灰暗的一面，但是也有温暖、快乐、柔软的一面。今天的人仿佛特别欢迎我们去控诉，但如果我们内心足够真诚的话，我们会知道过去的日子里有我们的生命。我试着在画一些带有历史色彩的图像时，去掉那些情绪化的东西，看看剩下的是什么，我认为那可能就是我们真正的“过去”。
赵：与其说你关注的是现实生态，不如说关注的是精神生态。
王：是的。比如《人工林》。大家认为人工林是绿化，绿化就是改善生态，但我认为这是个误解。人工绿化仅仅是生态的一个表象或者环节，并不能真正解决生态问题。日本的森林覆盖率是70%，但每年三、四月份，花粉四处蔓延，20%的人都会患上花粉症，而若干年前并没有这个病。花粉症的原因就是因为人工林。日本的建筑大部分是用木头，所以大量的种植人工林(以一种杉树为主)。在一个和谐的生态里，林子是需要和其它的树一起共生的，但是人工林里边没有一根杂树，有杂树全砍掉。我觉得这是对自然生态的一种畸形塑造，，所以引来了自然对人的报复：花粉实际上就带有侵略性，报复性。
中国现在也在大面积植树造林，只是中国短时间内不会出现这个问题。这个问题的根源在于人类存在着一种对物质的需求，而并非发自内心的想去爱这个自然，这不是“和谐”的概念。就像我们现在需要水泥，所以水泥就会大量出现，但水泥可能是两三百年也不能还原成土。最近我们感觉天气反复不正常，为什么会这样?再比如三峡工程，到底是不是需要这种方式，会不会对气候及生态产生重大影响，这都是问题。“和谐”是一个整体而持久的概念。如果把地球看成人的身体，那么我们要用中医的整体理念来调养和恢复，但是今天我们采用的是一种类似于西医的“植皮”“毛发移植”的理念。另外我们为什么会如此急切的发展?我们的发展到底是为了什么?我觉得首先要解决这个问题。
赵：在你看来，我们的理想居住状态是什么?
王：本质上还是回到一个中国化的状态，也就是一个和谐和包容的状态。我去过陕西的窑洞，当地的居住结构是非常好的：生活的建筑结构、邻里的关系、交通组织，关系是非常密切的，现代的商业也完全能够加进入，那种结构是更适合中国传统的一些东西。“建筑”本质上是居住，同样也是家庭聚会最重要的一个场所——人与自然的关系为基石之上建立起来的人与人伦理关系。而我们现在的单元楼、单元房显然是不能满足这个要求的，现在我们邻里之间的关系完全是一个摆设。
赵：你的画面感觉很虚，偏冷。
王：面对前面说的那些问题，我有一种“逃逸”的情结。我的画面是一种逃逸方式，画面的内容也是一种逃逸。
赵：那你是怎么看中国的“隐逸”传统的?
王：隐士文化一方面是一个传统——隐士不得志之后的何去何从。“志”就是自己的理想与现实结合，实现个人价值。但是往往很多人不能得偿所愿，然后就有归隐之心。实际上现在商业社会的进程中，能通过商业现实来实现自己全部人生理想的人，非常的少。我自己也从事过商业，后来发现很多理想无法通过商业来实现，所以我今天在这里绘画，其实也是一种“隐”。
隐逸文化从另外一个角度去说，也给知识分子提供了另外一种自我完善的途径。一旦生不得志，也不必心如死灰，而是依然有向善的、体现生命价值的可能。这实际上是中国人心胸豁达的一种体现。“独善其身”实际上不是逃避和虚无，反而特别适合一个浮躁的时代。当下中国社会是一个建设期，“建设”最重要的是从个人做起，从个人做起首先要“自善”。
赵：谈到“自善”，你画的那些树林对面，就是你画的菩萨像，这个很有意味。这是否预示着你找到了解决问题的方向?
王： 本来我的作品中很少出现人物 。但我去麦积山看了北魏的造像之后，深受震撼。当时有一种性冲动在里边，那种性冲动实际上是无对象的，就是感觉当时整个大脑完全一片空白，它已经超越了我们传统意义上说的“生理反应”，它是一个更高境界的“精神反应”。我们看以前古人些巫山神女，写洛神，写“神交”，我觉得就是这种感觉，很奇妙。
从形象上来看，这个佛像既不像女性，也不像男性，它是非常中性的，但是又那么完美，可能所谓和谐就是阴阳调和，中和之美。事物一旦不偏不倚了，就会“正”，就会摆脱因为极端而产生的刺激，就会呈现出本质。如果这是一个终极的话，可能这就是答案。我们必须通过很多“问题”才能到达那个完全荒凉的地方，这个荒凉的地方就住着“神仙姐姐”。这种高度给了我们一个可能的框架，让我们在现实中寻找，如果够幸运，就能找到那个中国式的眼神与微笑。
赵：你对生活的态度是什么?
王：现实生活有不如意的一面，但如何能以德报怨，和解矛盾是作为当下中国人应该具备的生活态度，也叫对生命的尊重吧!我认为人类最愚蠢的行为是报复，滥用用个人强权。如果我们大家都能做到独善其身，用个人的言行影响到自己的亲人和下一代，当然能影响更多的人会更好，这也就够了，真善 美是三个很庸俗的字，为什么今天变得庸俗，是因为大家都对他失望了，但如果我们相信他的存在，人和世界的关系就会很好延续下去。
Wang Haichuan: Memory, Ecology and Essence
Text: Zhao Zilong
Interview time: May 14th, 2010
Interview place: Wang Haichuan Studio, Heiqiao, Beijing
Zhao Zilong (Abbreviated as “Zhao” below): Your picture contains tube-shaped apartments, foreign-style houses and gardens and their colors are relatively unitary. Why is that?
Wang Haichuan (Abbreviated as “Wang” below): Maybe I want to feel more the relationship between traditional Chinese spirit and current situation. I think art is like life. It starts from the essence and the simpler it is, the better it will be. After many things are removed, what are left are spiritual things, i.e. essence. My painting has always been concerning this issue. I myself have been thinking of the essence of life.
My earliest paintings depicted Mediterranean, Spanish or American style high-class compounds, which might be a kind of representation of modern life. However, you will find a very “unnatural” feeling in these images. People are likely to be stuck in this modernized trend and give up their original cultural existence and thought, which have made them exist in a kind of “rootless” status. Modern things surely contain a lot of reasonable portions and they comply with our current life. However, abandoning the past thoroughly will make people be at loose ends.
Besides, my painting has something to do with collective memory, with what we can find from our history. For example, for tube-shaped apartments, every window has a story. It is not only a reproduction; it also bears the life status and qualities of our old era. At that time, the relationship between neighbors was different as what it is today. Which family cooked double-cooked pork slices and which family got bonus to redecorate their balcony, everybody would know. That kind of neighborhood relationship possessed a very beautiful part of the relationship between people.
I feel that it is becoming harder and harder for our generation to treat history nicely. Out of some sort of emotional complex, many artists are filled with sorrow and anger when they express history. In my opinion, although our past has its gray part, it also has a warm, happy and gentle part. Today people seem to welcome us to complain, but if our hearts are honest enough, we will know that our lives are in those past days. When I paint images with historical elements, I try to remove those emotional things and see what is left. I think that could be our real “past”.
Zhao: I’d say you pay attention to realistic ecology rather than spiritual ecology.
Wang: That’s true. For example, “artificial woods”. People think artificial woods are afforestation and afforestation is improving the ecology. But I think this is a misunderstanding. Artificial afforestation is only a superficial phenomenon of ecology and it cannot solve ecological problems. Japan’s percentage of forest cover is 70%. In every March and April, pollen is everywhere and 20% of the people will catch pollinosis. But several years ago, there was no such a disease. The cause of pollinosis is artificial woods. Most of the building materials in Japan are made of wood and that’s why they plant large amounts of artificial woods (mainly a kind of fir trees). In a harmonious ecology, artificial woods are supposed to co-exist with other trees. However, there are no other trees in the artificial woods because they will be felled if they appear. I think this is an abnormal shaping of natural ecology and that’s why it causes the revenge from nature: pollinosis is in fact invasive and retaliatory.
China is also planting artificial woods now, but China’s will not face this problem in a short time. The root of this problem is that people have a kind of need towards materials, but they do not love the nature deep down inside. This is not a “harmonious” concept. For example, we like cement, therefore cement appears in large amount. But cement cannot be turned into earth in two or three hundred years. Lately we feel the weather is not normal. Why? Also, is San Xia Project a right project? Do we really need to do it this way? Will it influence climate and ecology much? These are all problems. “Harmony” is a complete and consistent concept. If we regard the earch as a human body, then we need to use the concept of entity from Chinese medicine to help the body to recover. Nevertheless, what we adopt today is a concept similar to “skin-grafting” or “hair transplantation”. Besides, why are we in such a hurry to develop? What is the aim of our development? I think first we need to solve this problem.
Zhao: In your opinion, what is our ideal living status?
Wang: The essential part will be going back to the Chinese status, a harmonious and tolerate status. I have been to the cave dwellings in Shanxi. The inhabitation structure there is very good: the building structures, the relationship between neighbors, the transportation organizations…Everything is in close relation to other things. Modern commerce can immerge with them, too. That structure is more suitable for Chinese traditions. The essence of “architecture” is inhabiting and a building is a very important place for family reunions-the ethical relationship between man and man based on the relationship between man and nature. However, our apartments cannot fulfill this need. The neighborhood relationship now is a fake thing.
Zhao: Your picture looks illusionary and a little cold.
Wang: Concerning problems we mentioned before, I have an emotional complex-to escape. My picture is a way of escaping and the content of it is also a way of escaping.
Zhao: How do you comment on the Chinese tradition of “living in seclusion”?
Wang: The hermit culture has been a tradition. If a hermit cannot realize his goal, what will he do? A goal is a combination of ideal and reality. Many people cannot realize their goals, so they would like to live in seclusion. In fact, during the developing process of the commercial society, there are few people can realize all of their goals through commercial reality. I have been in the business field, too. Later I find that many things cannot be achieved through commerce. Today I paint, which is also a way of “living in seclusion”.
From another angle, this hermit culture also provides the intellectuals with a way of self-improvement. Once you cannot realize your goal, you are not supposed to be frustrated because there will always be another possibility to realize the value of life. This is the embodiment of Chinese people’s tolerance. “Paying attention to one’s own moral uplift without thought of others” actually is not escaping or nihilism. On the contrary, it is especially suitable for an agitated era. Currently Chinese society is a construction period. The most important thing of “construction” is starting from oneself; while starting from oneself requires “self-improvement”.
Zhao: Talking about “self-improvement”, facing the woods you painted are the bodhisattvas, which is very meaningful. Does this mean you have found a direction of solution?
Wang: Few figures would appear in my paintings. But after I went to Maiji Mountain and saw the sculptures from Bei Wei, I was shocked. There was a kind of impulsion there and the impulsion was objectless. I just felt my mind went blank and it surpassed the “psychological reaction” in the traditional sense; it was a “spiritual reaction” of a higher ground. Ancient people wrote about the fairy of Wu Mountain, the Goddess Luo and the “spiritual communication”. I think it was just like those feelings, very magical.
Judged from the image, this Buddha does not look like either female or male. It is neutral but perfect. Perhaps the so-called harmony is the balance between yin and yang. Once a thing is neutral, it will look “right”. It will also stay away from the stimulations or extremes and show its essence. If this is an ultimate point, we could get the answer. We have to reach that deserted place after we go through many problems and that deserted place is where the fairies live. This provides us with a possible structure to let us search in reality. If we are lucky enough, we can find that Chinese-style eyes and smile.
Zhao: What is your attitude towards life?
Wang: Realistic life has its ups and downs. To solve the conflicts and to requite evil with good what Chinese people should cherish as a life attitude currently. It can also be called as respect to life. I think the most stupid action of human beings is revenge with abuse of power. If we all can “Paying attention to one’s own moral uplift without thought of others” and use our own behaviors to influence our relatives and next generation, that would be enough. “The true, the good and the beautiful” are vulgar words. Why are they becoming vulgar today? Maybe because everybody is disappointed with them. But if we do believe they exist, then the relationship between man and the world will carry on well.
【编辑：小红】
